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  #1  
Old 01-20-2009, 05:38 PM
keener keener is offline
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Default Training recs to run a sub 2:30 marathon

I have been running marathons for over four years now, with a PR of 2:44. In the past I followed the Pfizinger and Douglas scehdules. I upped my mileage to well over 70 miles per week but suffered from anterior tibial stress syndrome at week 14 of a 24 week schedule. Based on test runs I would likely have run a 2:38 at CIM last December but I never made it to the race. The injury was likely related to too many miles at to much intensity in the Wave Ronins. I was feeling very good on my tempo runs generally running 5:30 pace for 4-6 miles but I did not have a lot of intervals in my training program. Is this necessary? How often? Since reading other posts I now realize the improtance of intervals so I havve been doing them once per week. As far as shoes, since the injury I have been running long runs in the Nimbus, tempo runs in the Speedstars and intervals in the Ronins. I would like to limit my mileage to 80-100 miles per week but incorporate all the key components to set a new PR ( i.e sub 2:30). This may be unrealistic but I am up for a challenge. I am more disciplined now than ever despite having less time to train. Any suggestions would be great.

Best Regards, Brian

Last edited by keener : 01-20-2009 at 06:18 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-20-2009, 07:15 PM
Joe Rubio Joe Rubio is offline
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Brian,

Your really have a lot of issues to deal with in this one semi-little question. Here's how it's laying out from where I sit:

1. You got injured at 70 a week, why are you going to 80-100 a week when your body wasn't ready for 70 a few months ago?
2. That amount of improvement to sub 2:30 from 2:44 is huge. Even if every indicator in the world suggested 2:38, the fact remains you are a 2:44 athlete. I realize you're used to getting significant improvements, but to expect that same return isn't very reasonable. Why are you shooting for some much improvement at this stage? Why not shoot for 2:40, then 2:35 THEN 2:30?
3. Intervals? I'm thinking those are a pretty consistent part of both schedules your were following. What part of their schedules weren't you doing?

So let me know on those and also let me know if I'm off the mark on what I'm reading into your questions.

Joe
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  #3  
Old 01-20-2009, 08:04 PM
keener keener is offline
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My last race was Boston 2008 and I ran 70-80 miles per week. After that I took two weeks off and then started logging base miles of 50-70 per week. Here is the schedule I picked up 24 weeks before CIM. My injury was self incflicted. Too amny miles in the Ronins running long downhills (3-4 miles) with sub 5:30 400m pcik-ups. In other words I wanted more too soon in the schedule. I can handle high mileage but havve to be smarter about running the run of the day rather than running how I feel for the day. If I feel good I will push the pace even if the schedule calls for easy. Hope the schedule below gives you some insite into my training. It goes through week 14 but I have the whole thing written out through week 21. After that I was going to follow Pfizinger's taper schedule with a little added mileage.

Week 1
M 6 Relaxed
T 9 w/10 @ 100 Relaxed
W 12 Relaxed
Th 6 Very Relaxed
F 11 Relaxed
S 6 Very Relaxed
S 16 First 10 at 6:45, last 6 at 6:15
Total 66

Week 2
M 5,4 Very Relaxed…...either run the double or run 7 in the am
T 9 w/4 @ 15k the 4 are at 6:00 or better
W 12 Relaxed
Th 6 Very Relaxed
F 11 Relaxed
S 6 Very Relaxed
S 17 First 10 at 6:40 and last 7 at 6:20
Total 70

Week 3 Recovery we may not need it but may pay off in the end
M 6 Very relaxed
T 7 w/10 @ 100 Relaxed
W 12 Relaxed
Th 6 Very relaxed
F 10 Relaxed
S 6 Very relaxed
S 15 Relaxed
Total 62

Week 4
M 6,4 Relaxed, Very Relaxed ----either run the double or run 7 in the am
T 10 w/4 @ 15k Relaxed and the 4 are at 6:00 or better ….cut the last two down 5:50 or better
W 13 Relaxed
Th 6 Very Relaxed
F 11 Relasxed
S 6 Very Relaxed
S 18 First 10 at 6:45 and the last eight at 6:20
Total 74

Week 5 ……buckle up, here we go
M 6,4 Very Relaxed - either run the double or run 7 in the am
T 10 w/10 at 100 relaxed
W 13 relaxed
Th 6 very relaxed
F 12 relaxed
S 7 very relaxed
S 19 First 10 at 6:40 and last 9 at 6:20……finish strong
Total 77

Week 6
M 6,4 Very Relaxed - either run the double or run 7 in the am
T 10 w/ 5 at 15k Relaxed and the 5 are at 6:00 or better
W 14 Relaxed
Th 6,4 Very Relaxed - either run the double or run 7 in the am
F 13 Relaxed
S 7 Very relaxed
S 20 First 10 at 6:45 and the second 10 at 6:30
Total 84


Week 7
M 8 Relaxed
T 8,4 Relaxed, very relaxed
W 10,4 6:30, very relaxed
Th 6,4 6:30, very relaxed
F 12 2 w/u - stretch- 8 mile @ 6:05 - 2 c/d
S 10 Relaxed
S 21 Relaxed the whole way ---- run what feels good, but under 6:50's
Total 87

Week 8 Recovery
M 10,4 Both relaxed
T 12 3 w/u -stretch - 3(2 mile repeats @ 11:40-11:50) w/ 3 to 4 min between reps - 2 c/d
W 8,4 Both relaxed
Th 8 relaxed to very relaxed
F 10,4 6:20-6:35, very relaxed
S 10 relaxed
S 13.5 3.5 w/u - stretch - 10K race - 4 c/d ---- if can not find a 10k race just run your heart out
Total 83.5

Week 9
M 9 relaxed
T 13 2.0 w/u - stretch - 7 x 1mile @ 5:35-5:40 - 2 c/d
W 8,4 relaxed, very relaxed or run 10 in the am
Th 8,4 relaxed, very relaxed or run 10 in the am
F 13 2 w/u - stretch - 9 miles @ 6:05 to 6:10 - 2 c/d
S 11 relaxed or very relaxed
S 20 very relaxed first 10 miles, 6:30's second 10 miles
Total 92

Week 10
M 8 Relaxed
T 9,4 relaxed, relaxed
W 12 2 w/u - stretch - 16 x 800m in 3:05 alternating 82/103 on the 400- 2 c/d
Th 8,4 relaxed, very relaxed
F 10 very relaxed, very relaxed
S 9,5 relaxed
S 20 relaxed, very relaxed
Total 89

Week 11
M 9 very relaxed, very relaxed
T 10,4 2 w/u - stretch - (2 mile repeats alternating 5:50/5:40 w/ 30 sec between miles)x3 w/90 sec between reps - 2c/d, very relaxed afternoon
W 9 very relaxed
Th 12 Shakeout 1 mile, 2 w/u, 10k race, 3 c/d --- just run 10k pace at 5:50
F 10,4 very relaxed, relaxed
S 10,4 relaxed, relaxed
S 16 relaxed
Total 88

Week 12
M 10 2 w/u - stretch - 9 x 1k (3 sets of 3 x 1k in 3:17 w/ 60 sec between reps and 3 minutes between sets) - 2 c/d
T 8,4 relaxed, very relaxed
W 11 very relaxed
Th 9,4 2 w/u - stretch - 6 x 800 in 2:30 - 2:32 w/ 600m jog 3 minutes - 2 c/d, very relaxed
F 10 very relaxed, relaxed
S 5,5 relaxed, relaxed
S 20 6:40-7:00
Total 86

Week 13
M 8,4 2w/u - stretch - 8k race - 1 c/d, very relaxed
T 10,4 6:25-6:35, very relaxed
W 10 relaxed
Th 10 relaxed
F 14 2 w/u - stretch - 6 x 1.5miles in 8:40-8:50 w/ 800 jog btween reps - 800m c/d
S 9 very relaxed
S 19 very relaxed first half, and relaxed the second half
Total 88

Week 14 Maybe some recovery
M 8 Relaxed
T 12 2 w/u - stretch - 8 miles at 6:00 pace - 2 c/d
W 10 relaxed
Th 15 2 w/u - stretch - 10 x 800m in 2:40 w/ 800m jog 210 sec between reps - 3 c/d
F 11 relaxed
S 8,4 relaxed, very relaxed
S 20 First 10 miles at 6:45 and second 10 miles at 6:30
Total 90
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  #4  
Old 01-20-2009, 08:31 PM
keener keener is offline
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One more thing. Basically I am wondering how to increase speed without getting injured. I can handle the high miles but want a training program that will increase speed. Are intervals needed mroe than once per week? Do I have too many easy days. Like I said earlier, if generally felt very refreshed and never sore during my runs. The only days that gave we troubles we wednesday because I do a longer core work out on tuesday. The endurance is not an issue at this point. Should I switch to 1/2 marathons and work towards the full?
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  #5  
Old 01-20-2009, 09:21 PM
Joe Rubio Joe Rubio is offline
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Brian,

You're training harder than guys who are running the Olympic Trials. Maybe the reason you got hurt.

Examples from what you list:
1. T 13 2.0 w/u - stretch - 7 x 1mile @ 5:35-5:40 - 2 c/d

2. M 10 2 w/u - stretch - 9 x 1k (3 sets of 3 x 1k in 3:17 w/ 60 sec between reps and 3 minutes between sets) - 2 c/d

Your PR is 2:44, which off the top of my head indicates approximately this level of fitness:

MP: 96 (6:16 pace)
Tempo: 91
10k: 86
5k: 81
3k: 76
1500: 71

For our people in the past (by this I mean sub 2:20 guys and sub 2:40 women), we'll do 4-5, maybe 6 x 1600 at their 10k-tempo pace. You're doing 7 at faster than 10k pace. For our people we'll do 2-3, maybe for the real advanced people 4 miles of stuff at their 5k pace, you're doing 9 x 1k at a faster effort with much less recovery. 3:17 is 79 pace, you should be looking at 3:37 (yes 20 seconds slower) for that workout IF you had more background.

You are basically killing yourself. Do less intervals at a slower pace with more recovery and you'll race much faster - stay healthier too.

Where are you getting your workout paces from?

Joe
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  #6  
Old 01-20-2009, 10:28 PM
keener keener is offline
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Too be honest, my brother put the paces together and I questioned the intensity but I seemed to handle the stress quite well. It makes me happy to read the olympic trial guys do not even train that hard. I was very motivated and yes may run faster than needed but this reflects my desire to be the best at what I do. After reading your comment about killing myself, you are right and my wife tells me the same thing. After I injured my leg I told my brother that the pacces may have been too fast with not enough slow miles. That is why I posted this message. I wanted someone who has run sub 2:20 to look at what I was doing and weigh in on what went wrong. You have done that but I would like to know what you propose for paces if the goal was to run a 2:35 at the next race and then 2:30, which I feel is very realistic. I already know I need to run slower on rest days. For example, yesterday 6 in the AM at 7:20 and 4 in the PM at 7:45. Then this AM 9 miles at 7:10 with 6 x 200m gradual incline at 5:20 pace with 200m jog back. Tonight I will run 4 miles at 7:45 to 8:00 pace. Since I started back after my injury this has been my plan and you reinforced the fact I was training to hard.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:35 PM
keener keener is offline
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Is the design of the schedule okay? If so, then maybe I should just correct the paces to what you feel is appropriate based on my fitness level.

Thanks so much for your help. I have never had any formal training and any advice is much appreciated.

Regards,
Brian
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  #8  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:22 PM
Joe Rubio Joe Rubio is offline
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Brian,

Your desire to be good should include reading and understanding the fine texts you currently own. They have a wealth of useful information that will help you. I suggest you follow the books you have and take to heart the pace charts they have and stick with them. They are based on race performances NOT goals. You run a race, it indicates a fitness level, then you base workouts on that. It doesn't work where you set an unrealistic goal pace and your body responds by becoming that runner. If it did, the world would be full of sub 4 minute milers. Dr Daniels also has pace charts as does Running Trax and Greg McMillan on his website. At the very least you can look at the paces I just outlined above to get an idea of what you should do pace wise.

No need to reinvent the wheel, just read the books you have, follow what they say and you should be good. Either that or if you don't like learning about this sort of thing (and a lot of people who are good don't), then it's best to find a coach your trust to guide your training.

Joe
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  #9  
Old 01-20-2009, 11:37 PM
keener keener is offline
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Very insightful Joe. I will take your advice and follow the paces outlined in the books I have. Trying to do more gave me less and that is a lesson we all need to learn at some point.

Brian
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