Road mile advice

[Doug E.]

Joe:
First of all, I wound up getting hosed by Boston closing, which wound up being a blessing in disguise (as you know).
I am currently working on building things back up, and am putting emphasis on a road 10K in ~mid June. I don't expect much out of the race, but it's kind of just something to put focus on.
Shortly after that, I will join the Masters ranks, and have decided to do a road mile to celebrate. This race will be in mid July, so I will have ~ 4 weeks to train specifically for it, and then I will shift into a Marathon focused training cycle for the Fall.
While I am familiar with your longer distances training, I was wondering if you could offer some ways to bridge all of the different distances, and what my best training methods for the mile might be? I haven't raced a mile in many years (since HS), so I don't really remember much about it.
As usual, I welcome any advice that you can offer.
Thanks,
Doug

[Joe Rubio]

Doug,

If you add some 1500 type speed at the end of your tempo runs or longer intervals, that is a pretty good bridge to mile races as well as developing finishing speed. So it looks like this:

4 mile tempo or maybe 4 x 1600, then 5 min easy, then 4 x 200 at 1500 pace w/ 200 jog.

The other thing is to incorporate a 1500 specific workout in your standard rotation. So every 14 days, you'd do 200-400's at 1500 race pace w/ an = distance recovery jog. Usually a mile worth of fast stuff is plenty. So say 8 x 200 w/ 200 jog or 5 x 300 w/ 300 jog or 4 x 400 w/ 400 jog.

How it looks for a guy like Sergio who ran 28:34 at Cardinal a few weeks ago:

Wk#1
WO#1: 1500 pace
WO#2: 5k pace

Wk#2
WO#1: 3k pace
WO#2: 10k pace

If you're goal is high level 5ks and 10ks, 1500 pace work consistently is pretty standard fare. Check guys like Shorter's logs to see.

Joe

[Doug E.]

Joe:

Thanks for the response, and the recommendations. I do have couple of quick questions.
1) With Sergio's schedule below, was there any sort of tempo work involved too?
2) You say that 1 mile worth of 1500 pace work is usually good. Do you have recommended quantities of total distance for the other paces too?

Thanks,
Doug

[Joe Rubio]

Doug E,

Quantities I usually stick to for most:

1500 pace: 4 laps total worth of work
3k pace: 8 laps total worth of work
5k: 12 laps totals worth of work
10k/tempo: 4 miles worth of work.

Here's Sergio's schedule for last April to get an idea of when the tempos were scheduled:

4/6-4/12
Wed: 2 x 8 x 400 at 64 or so w/ 200 jog
Thur: Long, moderate tempo at 5:15-20 pace
Weekend: in/out 1600s. 4:40/5:40's - if it's coming easy try 4:30-35/5:30:
9 miles worth.

4/13-4/19
Tues: 8 x 400 at 60-62 w/ 400 jog
Wed: Short, fast tempo at about 5:00 pace
Late week: Mt Sac 5k

4/20-4/26
Tues: 1600, 3200, 1600, 1600. 800 jog between each. All at 10k effort.
(thoughts on this one?)
Wed: Long, moderate tempo at 5:15-20 pace
Sun: Big Sur 5k

4/27-5/4: Easy week. No tempo this week. Cardinal Invite 10k Sunday
Mid week: In/out 400's.
Sat: Easy run + strides, possibly 4 x 200 at 3k w/ 200 jog.

Short, fast tempos should be about 20-30 min total. Long, moderates would
be 40-50 min total. Either can be done broken in half with a recovery run of
a few minutes.

Joe

[Doug E.]

Thanks Joe!

Do you find that back to back hard days seem to work well for Sergio?

[Joe Rubio]

Doug,

28:34 is pretty good. He's gotten a PR a year since college where he ran 30:03. I'm thinking it works. If you read Daniels book, he mentions it as well. The thing is, we're talking here of talented runners in their mid 20's they recover in next to no time. Still, for the people I have do it, it really does work well. We tend to go 2 back to back sessions each week:

Day 1: Short intervals
Day 2: tempo work
Day 3: Really easy short recovery run
Day 4: Long intervals
Day 5: Long run
Day 6: Real easy longer run + strides
Day 7: Maintenance run

I never felt good 2 days after a hard workout, the day after though I would generally start stiff, but by after a few miles I felt really good. I find most people work that way. I never liked personally doing hard days followed by an easy day and repeat. I liked it better going hard, moderate, easy, repeat. Others go moderate, hard, easy then repeat. Try it and see what ya think.

Joe

[Doug E.]

Thanks Joe. I'm sorry...I guess that I was a little vauge with that question. You're right....Sergio is running very well. I am just so used to seeing the moderate, hard, easy rotation, that I was a bit suprised to see back-back hard days. I guess that what I really wanted to know was if that was SOP for him, or something new since he's started working with you, was there an adjustment phase to it, etc.?
I agree with you, in that I tend to feel better the day after a heard workout, then I do 2 days later. I have wondered in the past if back-back might be a good way to go.

[Bob2]

Doug,

28:34 is pretty good. He's gotten a PR a year since college where he ran 30:03. I'm thinking it works. If you read Daniels book, he mentions it as well. The thing is, we're talking here of talented runners in their mid 20's they recover in next to no time. Still, for the people I have do it, it really does work well. We tend to go 2 back to back sessions each week:

Day 1: Short intervals
Day 2: tempo work
Day 3: Really easy short recovery run
Day 4: Long intervals
Day 5: Long run
Day 6: Real easy longer run + strides
Day 7: Maintenance run

I never felt good 2 days after a hard workout, the day after though I would generally start stiff, but by after a few miles I felt really good. I find most people work that way. I never liked personally doing hard days followed by an easy day and repeat. I liked it better going hard, moderate, easy, repeat. Others go moderate, hard, easy then repeat. Try it and see what ya think.

Joe
Joe, I have been following the schedule with a second 20-30 minute run on days 1 & 4. I have been thinking of adding a couple more easy 20-30 minute runs since I always feel better the days I add them. I know days 2 & 5 are out. Any preference on which of the other days? Or just let it go and get the rest since I'm a master?

Thanks, Bob

[Joe Rubio]

Thanks Joe. I'm sorry...I guess that I was a little vauge with that question. You're right....Sergio is running very well. I am just so used to seeing the moderate, hard, easy rotation, that I was a bit suprised to see back-back hard days. I guess that what I really wanted to know was if that was SOP for him, or something new since he's started working with you, was there an adjustment phase to it, etc.?
I agree with you, in that I tend to feel better the day after a heard workout, then I do 2 days later. I have wondered in the past if back-back might be a good way to go.

Doug,

I think the thing to realize is here is that for a masters type guy and people new to competitive running a tempo run is considered "hard". For a more advanced runner, it's considered moderate. Really for a 28:30 type 10k guy to run 4-6 miles at 5 min pace or 8-10 at 5:20 pace isn't that taxing. It's a strong effort, but not what I would consider really difficult.

So if you wanted to try the idea to start, play with a tempo effort at 80% of your 5k time, then work to 85%. That should get it done without killing you off or just keep your tempo run as it current stands which is probably 90% and view it as its own hard workout.

Does that make sense?

Joe

[Joe Rubio]

Joe, I have been following the schedule with a second 20-30 minute run on days 1 & 4. I have been thinking of adding a couple more easy 20-30 minute runs since I always feel better the days I add them. I know days 2 & 5 are out. Any preference on which of the other days? Or just let it go and get the rest since I'm a master?

Thanks, Bob

Bob,

I'd probably look to add more minutes to your current schedule first. So say 5 minutes in the 25-30 min range. Also add a few ticks to your warmup and cooldown. So instead of say a 15 min warmup and cooldown, make it 20 up and down. The idea would be to maximize your hard days and then allow the off days to be real recovery which is the trick to masters training. Make your hard days hard and keep the easy days easy.

Make sense?

Joe

[Bob2]

Makes perfect sense. Just hard getting used too taking more rest as one gets older. So for a master just stick to the basic schedule and make days 3 & 6 real easy or DNR? Anything else different you recommend for masters?

Thanks, Bob

[Joe Rubio]

If anything, it's just making sure you get adequate recovery and not forget the importance of regular 1500-3k work. If you're really into it, racing all comers 1500 really, really does the trick in terms of improving not only fitness but racing skills. No matter if you are a marathoner or 5k guy, racing 1500's a couple of times a year hurts like heck, but nothing else out there will tell you what needs work more than this event.

Joe