Controlled, or race?

[Doug E.]

Joe:

I am trying to follow your Aggies XC training outline as I build up for club champs. I will be running the All-Ohio XC Championships this Friday. According to the outline, races should still be controlled efforts, but this will be my last chance for a race on grass before club's. Should I still be controlled, or race my guts out on it? I'm still not sure how fit I actually am right now, and alot of people are saying that it's one of the hardest corses in the country (Ohio Weselyan).

Thanks...
Doug E.

[runner39]

Doug E.

I am basically following the Aggies XC training outline as well, posted a question for Joe earlier, any chance you could post your training, I having a difficult time decided on what workouts to do when

Thanks

[Doug E.]

I am working off of a 12 week cycle, culminating @ the USATF Club XC Championships. There are 3 4-week cycles of 3 up weeks/ 1 down week.
In this last cycle, my weekly schedule has looked like this:

Mon: Recovery
Tues: Steady effort
Wed: Workout
Thurs: Medium long
Fri: Recovery
Sat: Workout
Sun: Long

My Wed. workouts have been fartleks of 3 min. fast w/ 2 min. recovery. My Sat. workouts were supposed to have been mile repeats @ tempo pace. My last two weekends have been screwed up (my own fault), so they haven't worked out. Thursdays are done @ a steady effort, but I work the 5-6 hills on the loop, including one very long one.

I will probably change the schedule for the next cycle to:

Mon: Recovery
Tues: Workout
Wed: Medium long
Thurs: Steady
Fri: Workout
Sat: Medium long
Sun: Long

I'd rather move that workout into the week, since it doesn't seem to be working out for me on the weekend.

[runner39]

what workouts are you planning for the next cycle, what workouts did you do in your initial cycle

thanks

[Doug E.]

You can see the previous cycle above.

In the next cycle, I plan on alternating the following:
Mid-week: 2-X-(4-X-1.5 min. fast w/= recovery) w/ 3 min. recovery
7-X-(3 min. fast w/ 2 min. recovery)
Late week: Continuous tempo-run of 20-25 min. @ 85-90% MHR
4-X-Mile
I may also do a race, or two, which will take the place of one of the workouts.

[runner39]

that is basically what I have planned as well, in this cycle will you reduce overall weekly mileage or just keep the same 3up 1down approach, any plans for the last two weeks before your peak race, I find the taper the most difficult approach to training, not sure how to go about it properly, understand the basic concepts, i.e. reduce volume, intensity, just not sure what workouts to do and when to do them, if possible could you post what your last two weeks before the peak race will look like

thanks

[Brian Spang]

Here's what I did back in 2004, per Joe's schedule:

11/22-11/28
Mon. a.m. 5 easy p.m. 7 easy
Tue. Same as Monday, plus strides.
Wed. a.m. 5 miles. p.m. 6 miles, then 8 X 200 w/200 jog. 3 mile cool down.
Thu. a.m. 5 p.m. 10
Fri. Two easy 5 mile runs.
Sat. a.m. 5 p.m. 3 mile warm-up, strides, 6 X 800 @ 5K race pace. 400 jog recovery. (2:33, 30, 27, 24, 29, 29) 2 mile cool down.
Sun. 10 miles easy.

11/29-12/5
Mon. a.m. 4 miles, with 8 X 100 strides
Tue. a.m. 4 miles p.m. 2 mile warm up, strides, 4 X in/outs, 2 mile cool down.
Wed. 7 miles easy.
Thu. 5 miles easy.
Fri. a.m. 15 minutes, strides. p.m. 15 minutes.
Sat. a.m. 10K Club Nationals p.m. lots of beer
Sun. zero...hungover.

[runner39]

Thanks for the info Brian,

what does 4 x in/outs refer to?

[Doug E.]

Brian/bspang:

Good to hear from you again. I was wondering if you had fallen off of the face of the earth. I hope that all is going well. Maybe you can offer an opinion/suggestion on my question & training too.
Would I be correct in assuming that 4-X-in/out=4 laps of it?

[Brian Spang]

Hey Doug...I still roam the earth...and have covered many miles the past month...just not very fast!!! How's your training going?

Those in & outs...that particular workout in '04 was a 400 in 75 seconds, followed by a lap about 20 seconds slower, right into another lap in 75 seconds, and so on for 8 laps total...no breaks.

There's variations of this workout too...such as running them at 3K-5K pace with the slower 400 run at marathon pace. When in pretty good shape, you can run up to 6 miles of these straight up.

[runner39]

Brian, any chance you could post some more of your training weeks?

thanks

[Brian Spang]

Hi Runner 39...sorry for the late response. Got a bit busy!

I'll post what I did in last month, which is not real specatular. Just trying to get fit & lose some pounds & hopefully be able to run well at this year's club nationals.

9/2-9/8
Sun a.m. 8 miles p.m. 4
Mon. a.m. 5 p.m. 8
Tue. a.m. 7 p.m. 13 miles with 20 X minutes.
Wed. 12 miles
Thu. 10 miles
Fri. a.m. 6 p.m. 10 miles progressive, last 5 at MP effort.
Sun. 20 miles


9/9-9/15
Sun. a.m. 8 p.m. 5
Mon. a.m. 5 p.m. 10
Tue. a.m. 5 p.m. 13 miles with 10 X 3 min on/off. On's at tempo effort working down to 10K effort.
Wed. a.m. 5 p.m. 7
Thu. a.m. 5 p.m. 10
Fri. a.m. 5 p.m. 12 miles with 20 X minutes.
Sat. 20 miles.

9/16-9/22
Sun. a.m. 11 p.m. 4
Mon. 10 miles.
Tue. a.m. 5 p.m. 15 with 6 X 5 minutes @ tempo/10K effort.
Wed. 5 miles.
Thu. a.m. 6 p.m. 13 with 20 X minutes.
Fri. a.m. 5 p.m 9
Sat. 20 miles.

9/23-9/29
Sun. a.m. 5 p.m.10
Mon. a.m. 5 p.m. 8
Tue. 10 miles
Wed. a.m. 5 p.m. 10 with 8 X 200's on grass.
Thu. 13 miles.
Fri. a.m. 5 p.m. 11 miles with 2 X 4 miles at tempo effort. (23:08, 23:13)
Sat. 18

All stuff I learned from Joe. Hope that helps! Time for a beer...

[runner39]

Thanks Brian,

I ran a workout today, 5 x 1200m w/ 2 min rest (all around 3:58), last two were quite difficult, without going into too much detail, any comments on the workout, i.e. my times for 5k/10k races, is this a proper interval workout, what about the amount of rest

I have run 5k-16:45, 10k-35:40

Joe please respond also if you read this.

[Joe Rubio]

"I ran a workout today, 5 x 1200m w/ 2 min rest (all around 3:58), last two were quite difficult, without going into too much detail, any comments on the workout, i.e. my times for 5k/10k races, is this a proper interval workout, what about the amount of rest

I have run 5k-16:45, 10k-35:40

Joe please respond also if you read this."

So your 5k PR pace is roughly 80/400 and 3:58 is roughly 80 pace. You did 6000m worth of work at your PR 5k pace and took half the time recovery. What do I think? You are working out way, way over your head. Your volume is greater than it should be, the pace too fast and the rest too little - so yeah, you are over training. I can imagine the last 2 were hard cause you most likely needed to go to the well to get it done which in my mind, is not what workouts are for. Workouts you walk away from knowing you could have done more, races you shouldn't. Probably in your best interest to back off a few notches.

You should be taking at least a equal time recovery on workouts at your 5k pace. So a 600-800 jog in 4 minutes is more appropriate. 5000m of volume is about right as well vs the 6k you're doing now. If you wanted to keep it at a 2 min recovery and the same 5 x 1200, cut the pace back to 10k/tempo pace (85-90) and you're good.

Does this make sense?

Joe

[runner39]

Thanks Joe,

Great advice as usual, ya definitely to hard on that workout, my long easy run the next day and todays easy run didn't feel great, the weather was very hot/humid but that workout took more out of me than I wanted, so anytime you do 5k pace workouts should the volume be 5000m and the rest be a jog of half the interval distance

[Joe Rubio]

Generally speaking, this is what I have most decent runners do in terms of volume at certain paces and the approximate recoveries. This guide we used with Martin Hernandez 2 years ago and he went from 4:15/16:04 down to 4:50/15:13 in a single season. Kara June used it this past year and went from 4:30/10:12 steeple/16:37 5k down to 4:20/9:57 steeple/16:18 5k on the track. Both were in the 70-80 MPW range.

1500 pace: 1600m volume, equal distance jog or 2x time recovery
3k pace: 3200m volume, 1/2 distance jog or equal time recovery
5k pace: 3 miles worth of stuff, 1/2 distance jog or equal time recovery
10k-tempo: 4 miles worth of stuff, 1/4 distance jog or 1/2-3/4 time recovery

What we did last year and what our marathoners are doing this fall is instead of doing mile reps at 10k pace with an easy 1/4 mile jog, instead we have been doing in/out miles. So a mile at 10k followed by a recovery mile at about 60 seconds slower. Back and forth, continuous run. Last spring, Kara would do a 5-7 mile run in this fashion (5:40/6:40/5:40/6:40, etc), this fall the marathoners have been doing 9 milers the same way. So for Sergio who was 8th at the New Haven 20k it was 9 miles going 4:35/5:35/4:35/5:35, etc results have been very solid.

Let me know if the above needs more explanations.

Joe

[runner39]

thanks again Joe, definitely will change my interval workouts, I have always found it hard to guage the intensity of these workouts but I guess when you barely finish the workout and on all fours in the infield it's safe to say you have over done it, the in/out mile workout sounds like a great strength tempo type effort, can or should one use this workout throughout the year and when to stop using in relation to a peak race

[runner39]

Joe,

last weeks training:

M- 60 mins easy
T - 60 mins easy
W - 20 min tempo (5:52 pace) + 5 x hills (200m w/ jog down rest)
T - 10 miles easy/med
F - rest
S - 5 x 1200m w/ 2 min rest
S - 1hr 45 mins easy


I have 7 weeks till my peak race, have a race this Sun, not sure what to do this week, I am somewhat tired from the last few days (mainly Sat workout), I know this race is not that important but I still woould like to run well, if possible can you look at my plan for the week

M- 60 mins easy
T - 60 mins easy
W - 2 mile tempo (sub 12 min) + 6 x 600m (2:00) w/ 75 sec rest
T - 60 min easy
F - rest
S - 30 min easy
S - 10k road race

Thanks,
Ken

[runner39]

Joe,

I also meant to ask you about my 20 min tempo effort, in early Sept did a 1/2 marathon (1:20:20), I ran quite conservatively and was hurting at the end but felt like I could have gone faster, so my tempo run last week was 20 min at 5:52 pace, what do you think of the effort, ok or too fast

thanks,
Ken

[Joe Rubio]

Ken,

For this week, I'd bail on the 2 mile tempo and instead just go for a 30-40 minute run, then do the 200's. The rest of the week looks fine.

As far as tempo pace or any pace for that matter, we always use a current race performance to set workout paces. I don't really care if the athlete comes in and tells me they could have run faster in the race they just finished. If that was actually the case, they should have done so. I take their races to be their best effort that day and a true indicator of their fitness. That way it's easy, the athlete runs the race, I set the workout paces based on that. If they want to work out faster, fine, race better. It only takes a bit of time, but eventually they get it AND they end up making the turn from fun runner to competitive runner which means race performances are #1, everything else is secondary.

So you just came off a half marathon at 6:08 pace and you are running your 4 mile tempos and 5:52, a good 16 second per mile faster. I am assuming you are using the standard definition of a tempo run to be your current half marathon pace, which means effectively you are running your tempos much too fast, nearly current 10k race pace by my calculations. This my friend is a fine example of what is commonly called overtraining. You are racing your workouts. Workout paces I'd be setting for you based on your current half marathon race and NOT your pr's would be:

1600: 4:48/72
3k: 5:08/77
5k: 5:28/82
10k: 5:48/87
tempo: 6:08/92
MP: 6:28/97
80%: 6:48/102
AE: 7:08
Recovery: 7:28+

Check the results from your 10k this weekend, if you improve on the time estimated above, adjust the workout times accordingly. If not, stick to the above chart until you race a race distance faster than listed above.

I'd suggest you get Daniels Running Formula or Dr Purdy's Running Trax to help you estabnlish appropriate workout paces for yourself.

Let me know if you have additional questions.

Joe

[runner39]

Thanks Joe,

nothing like a good dose of reality to smarten someone up, I think I am beginning to see the light so to speak, I guess this whole scenerio probably explains my lack of improvement for the last 3 years, I was trying to set workout PR's and run interval times too fast, I guess I just believed that if I could handle said workout I could run that pace in a race but obviously not because I never did, overtraining ya makes sense, I really have no excuses because I have JDaniels' book and know what paces I should run but have been just trying to run faster each time I did a workout with no relation to race times, fairly simple once you think about it

thanks again,
Ken

[Joe Rubio]

Ken,

The change in mind set from workout king (defined as a guy who can only be slowed down by placing a race number on him) to a race stud is kinda like coming off PF. Once you start treating it, the idea is for the pain to level off, then gradually get better. Same concept here. No way in 1 week you're going to start seeing race times drop, but over time you should. In most cases it takes about 3-6 months. The problem with trying to run better workouts each time out is you are spending your available mental energy and focus on workouts which leaves less available for the races when you need it. Your focus is all over the map instead of sharply dialed into the bullseye. So the idea is to be consistent in getting out the door, get the workouts in, stay healthy and then be mentally and physically ready to race. Then afterwards look for ways to improve your competitive skills. Like anything else, racing is a skill. Yes fitness has a ton to do with how well you race, but once you're fit, the 12" above your shoulders takes on much greater importance. Stuff like not going out too fast when you feel great and learning to suffer the last 1/3 of the race distance when it's demanding isn't easy BUT that's how you improve.

Best of luck. Keep me posted on the progress.

Joe

[Doug E.]

Brian:

First of all...the mileage looks very impressive.
I notice that you're doing Minutes almost every week. Isn't it a bit early for that? I have looked over Joe's XC outline, and it seems to be more stregnth focused at this point. Are you just trying to keep turnover?

Doug

[runner39]

Joe,

You mentioned the book Running Trax, can you tell me alittle about this book and is it a good one to have.

[Joe Rubio]

"Joe,

You mentioned the book Running Trax, can you tell me alittle about this book and is it a good one to have."

A pretty smart Stanford Professor named Dr Gerry Purdy back in the 60's and 70's studied the various distance record WR's at the time and made a boat load of comparison performance charts such that he came up with a value for any race time at most any standard race distance. He was the first guy I'm aware of to say a 16:20 5k is worth 608 points while a 34:10 10k is worth the same value, while a 1:16:20 half marathon is worth about the same amount. In this way the reader could determine if 1 race performance was superior to another, to determine if an athlete had better speed or strength, etc.

He and James Gardner in 1970 came up with he book Computerized Running Training Programs. Based on much of this info, he has included charts in Running Trax that you could look at the charts and find out for instance if you recently came off a 1:16:20 half, you'd see a value of 608. You'd reference the 600 point value chart (they go up in 50 point values so you need to adjust a bit up or down to get the correct chart) and it it gives you the length of the interval on the top line (100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, 500, 600, 800, 1,000, 1200, mile) and the number of reps and the appropriate recovery intervals on the lefthand side of an excel type sheet. Where they cross you get a split. So for instance, you are looking to do 5 x 1200. It gives you a split of 4:05 and a recovery of 3-4 minutes for someone who ecently ran a 1:16:20 13.1 miler.

So if you are sitting around at work thinking "man it would be great to do 5 x 1200, I think I'll do them at 4:00 and take a 2 minute rest", well you would check this book before you headed out and see that maybe the pace is a tad too fast and the recovery interval too short, so you could adjust or if not, you would know going in you were in for a tough, tough workout.

Basically it keeps you from making up these great workouts on paper that sound fantastic, but in reality are way too much. It helps me keep from killing people off. A safety net if you will.

Not much for fun reading, but a very solid reference. You can get it from Track and Field News.

Joe

[runner39]

Joe,

I found this website:

http://misweb.cbi.msstate.edu/~rpearson/intervals.html

would this be similiar to the running trax workout chart?

Thanks,
Ken

[Joe Rubio]

Ken,

Yeah it's similar, but the workouts are not exactly the same. The link you sent has a greater volume of work at a faster pace. Running Trax is proven by many, many coaches for close to 40 years, so you can be certain the workouts are appropriate. Some of the best HS, college and club coaches I know have used it w/ success. Too many for it to be coincidence. It has various chapters on how to effectively use the charts, so for instance you want to do 4 x 1600 + 4 x 200 for your workout. Running Trax can let you know how to figure out what paces and recoveries you should be taking. I'm pretty sure the current version of Running Trax comes with a computer program you can install which will calculate this workouts for you. Still, reading the book helps you understand the underlying foundation on which the charts are built, so you know how to use them best.

It's not too much. Mine has more than paid for itself.

Joe

[runner39]

Joe,

I was going over my log from this past summer and looking over the workouts leading up to my peak race, what do you thnk of the following:

this workout was 11 days before race:
5 x 1000m w/ 2 min rest (3:16, 3:14, 3:17, 3:17, 3:14)

even wrote this in my log, "difficult but managable, last one hurt a whole bunch"

four days later ran a 3000m race on the track (9:44), hot and very windy

then one week later ran my peak race 5000m on track (16:58)

from my log, "

[runner39]

con't from last post, wrote in my log:

"all I can say is disappointing, I should probably just hang up the shoes, training was good, I just can't seem to breakthrough, my results for this race since 2005:
2005 - 16:52
2006 - 16:54
2007 - 16:58
I don't know how you get slower after 2 good years of solid training, if this is the best I can do then why bother
The weather was warm but not unmanageable"


easy to see I was training way over my head

[Joe Rubio]

Joe,

I was going over my log from this past summer and looking over the workouts leading up to my peak race, what do you thnk of the following:

this workout was 11 days before race:
5 x 1000m w/ 2 min rest (3:16, 3:14, 3:17, 3:17, 3:14)

even wrote this in my log, "difficult but managable, last one hurt a whole bunch"

four days later ran a 3000m race on the track (9:44), hot and very windy

then one week later ran my peak race 5000m on track (16:58)

from my log, "

Ken,

For our athletes here, people who have made USATF Nationals or the Olympic Trials, people who are top 10 in the US at their respective distance, one of the absolute hardest workouts we do all year, the one the athlete fear a lot is 6 x 800 at their current projected 3k pace with a 400 jog in about 2 minutes. Keep in mind, these are people who have run sub 4 for the mile, sub 14 for the 5k, sub 29 for the 10k for men, or sub 4:40 and low 16's for 5k for women and they fear this workout. Why? Because it's a monster.

You did 5 x 1000 at your current 3k pace exactly based on your 9:44 3k and the 3:15's or so you were running the 5 x 1k in. You did a longer rep, you took proportionally less rest the some of the better runners in California.

If it was me, and I was designing the workout you would have done that 5 x 1k w/ a 400 jog and made 'em in 3:25 or so the first 3, then dropped down the last 2 to 3:22, maybe 3:20 feeling great, confident and ready to roll. This is pretty much the workout that Kara did last spring when doing stuff like 1k's, only in her case it was 6 x 900 on a dirt field in 3:00 w/ a 2-3 min recovery and ran 16:18. She ran a slower workout pacewise than you but ran 30+ seconds faster in the 5k.

Yeah, you're overbaked.

Joe

[runner39]

Joe,

I guess that is what happens when you don't have a coach and try to set PR's in practice.

I found the book Computerized Running Programs by Purdy in the library, photocopied some of the pacing table charts, are these the same charts as Running Trax and is the point system the same. I didn't have time to read the book that much just glanced at the points table and I think 600 was a 35:20 6mile which is probably a 36:50 10k, so I am trying to figure out what point level I am at. Do you have an idea, you mentioned 608 points for a 1:16 1/2 marathon so I am obviously below that.

[runner39]

Joe,

one thing I forgot to mention from my training was, in Feb 2007 I ran a 5k road race in 16:45, in March ran 3000m indoors in 9:37 and in May before I did that 5x1000m described earlier I ran a 35:40 10k road race, after the indoor 3000m in March what point level would I have been at and what would a workout look like.

Thanks,
Ken

[Joe Rubio]

Ken,

Take the time to read the book. It'll make you a better athlete. Buy it, keep it near your desk and use it as a reference.

As far as your questions, you are at the 600 point level from what I can tell. The charts in the book will give you tons of workouts.

Joe

[runner39]

So are Running Trax and Computerized Running are essential the same book? according to Computerized I am at 625 points, I am getting confused

[Joe Rubio]

Ken,

You are killing me. You're getting confused because you haven't read the book and you are being impatient. Take the time to read the book and you won't be confused any longer. If you are, let me know.

The charts go in 50 point increments, so 550, 600, 650, etc. You being 608 or 625 isn't a real big deal. I was suggesting using use chart 600 to stay conservative. Switch to chart 650 when you want to push the envelop the last few weeks as you approach a big race.

Joe

[runner39]

OK, thanks Joe

[Brian Spang]

Brian:

First of all...the mileage looks very impressive.
I notice that you're doing Minutes almost every week. Isn't it a bit early for that? I have looked over Joe's XC outline, and it seems to be more stregnth focused at this point. Are you just trying to keep turnover?

Doug

Hey Doug! I'm trying to get in some type of turnover work once a week. The minutes are a rough 5K effort but start out slower than that. Oh and the mileage will drop this month too. Hope your training's going well & have a great weekend!

[runner39]

Hello Joe,

ran a 10k road race this morning, 35:30 a ten second PR, weather was perfect and course was flat, nice to finally be setting PR's, thanks for your help and hopefully with proper paced training I can keep improving.

Ken

[BEER STEAK]

Hey guys. I'm brand new here, but I'm familiar with Joe's advice from letsrun, and I'm currently following his middle distance guide.

I'm not the exact athlete the guide is catered to, but I haven't found another program that makes as much sense to me as Joe's guide, so I'm using it. It's going well so far (I have modified a bit to fit my ability level). Just ran a 5k road pr this past weekend, though I have struggled with feeling a little worn down this fall. I'm still tinkering, trying to fit his advice to my experiment of one.

Joe, looks like you've got a great site here and you seem to be generous with your time and advice. I'll let you know if I have any questions. For now, just wanted to say hi.

[Joe Rubio]

Beer Steak,

Cool, welcome aboard. I'm off until late next week for various work things, so if you happen to post looking for some feedback, don't stress if I don't respond right away. I'll get to it later next week.

Joe