Recovery runs

[runner39]

Hello Joe,

I have a question about recovery runs, on my non-workout or long run days I have been doing a 75 min run (call it 10 miles give or take), would I better off doing a double day for recovery days like, am-45 to 60 min / pm-30 min, I guess I am just concerned about proper recovery, my training week looks like this:
M - 75 min / 10 miles
T - 75 min / 10 miles
W - workout of some sort / 10-12 miles
T - 75 min / 10 miles
F - 75 min / 10 miles
S - Long run / 1:45 / 14-15 miles
S - 75 min / 10 miles

Please feel free to give me advice on my weekly schedule.

[Joe Rubio]

Man, this sure looks tough to me. 75 min as singles is a long run in my book. We tend to do 2 runs as singles over say 70 minutes. We do a mid week run, usually in the hills at an uptempo pace towards the end. So say 75 minutes with the last 4 or so miles at about 80% of the person's 5k race pace. The weekend we'll have them do a single 90-120 min easy. The rest of the week is made up of 2 primary faster workouts that include a second run of 20-40 min. 2 of the other day are a single 40-60 min run and possibly an additional 20-40 min run. The last day of the week focuses on recovery and is a day off, or possibly a single run of 20-40 min super easy. Some may do 2 20-40 min easy runs this day.

In looking at your schedule it really seems like the off days are too long and the hard days are too easy. I'd up the mileage run your hard days and make it like this:

AM: 20-40 min
PM: 20-30 min warmup and cooldown + workout for the day.

That usually comes out to 90-120 min of running for the day and generally leads to better results than does a hard day of "only" 10-12 and recovery days of the same distance.

A thing to keep in mind is the body responds best when it's given adequate recovery. You have zero recovery days in your program which usually delays progress or leads to injuries. Make 1 day super easy each week at the very least.

Let me know if that was what you were after.

Joe

[runner39]

Thanks for the reply Joe,

A couple of questions:

1) it's really difficult for me to run doubles because of family committments, I do the majority of my runs at 5:30am through the work, on this schedule in the winter I ran PR's in 3000m indoors (only 7 secs though) and 5k road race (7 secs as well), the one workout I ran per week was a tempo style i.e. 6 mile tempo or 3 x 2 mile, it work in the winter but when I started to do more 3k-5k pace intervals (only once a week) I began to feel tired sometimes and legs sore (hamstring in borderline injured right now, icing as a type), so I guess it is obvious I can't handle that type of volume when the faster stuff and racing starts, what do you think

2) to make a long story short I haven't improved much over the last 3 years and I increased my mileage because I thought I would improve (went from 55-60 avg to 70-75 avg), I did but very little, I really don't know where to go from here, I am 39 and turn 40 in Sept and I was hoping to be a competitive masters runner at this time, right now my PR's are 5k-16:45 / 10k-35:49, so it doesn't look like I am going to get to that level, in 2005 my PR's were 5k-16:52 / 10k-35:49 (ya haven't got any faster in 2 years and I have had consistent training with no injuries), any thoughts on how to break out of this plateau

[runner39]

Joe,

I guess what I am trying to say is that does my current schedule yield to better results, I did set some PR's this past winter with that schedule but they were very minimal. Two years ago when I set my 5k/10k PR's I was around 55-60 miles / week and over the past year have avg around 75 miles / week (like the schedule from the original post) with a very small improvement. Now after about 5 months of that schedule I am feeling sort of run down and have a slight hamstring injury, oh ya I haven't taken a day off in 5 months either (taken tomorrow off though). Maybe I should go back to 55-60 miles per week, at least I wasn't getting injuried or run down, I just thought to move to the next level I had to increase my workload, now I am questioning if that worked or do I have to go to 100 miles/week to see a difference.

[Joe Rubio]

Maybe this will help. My wife works 30-35 hours a week, we have 2 kids 2 and 4, she ran a marathon last December and ran a huge PR. She took 2 days off each week, ran I'm guessing 50-60 a week BUT her hard days were hard. She ran doubles on Wednesday and Saturday. I stopped running Wed to cover the kids. She ran her primary workout at 5:30 like you, she ran a second easier run after work. Saturdays, same thing, hard workout in the AM, afternoon easy run with the kids in the jogger while I was at work. Sunday she headed out at 5:30 before the kids woke up, I ran long when she got back. She took Mon and Fridays completely off so I could run on those days and she could recover. Not ideal, but it worked. Here's how it looked:

Sun: Long run. Easy
Mon: DNR
Tues: 60 min easy
Wed: AM hard workout w/ long warmup and cooldown. PM. easy 30-40 min.
Thurs: 75-90 single in hills uptempo.
Fri: DNR
Sat: AM hard workout w/ long warmup and cooldown. PM. easy 30-40 min.

She ran 3:12 at CIM off this.

Couple of things you should consider:

1. No way you can run faster workouts and do the mileage you're trying to do in singles, you'll break as you found out. Cut out some of the miles some days, add it to others. You'll have the same weekly mileage, you'll have more success. Can't fit in the extra miles the hard days? Cut it out - simple. You are NOT getting adequate recivery particularly since you are 40. If you were 26, sure try it. Not at 40, you need more recovery, you're running the program of U of CO and those kids are young. Can you run a double Saturday and still stay married? If so, do it then. Can you run at lunch? If so, do a double then. Have a big day with lots of work, T-ball, PTA metings, whatever? Take that day as a zero and don't stress it. Look over your week, design the program to fit around your life.

2. Mileage should be a byproduct of the work performed each week Not necessarily the goal, mearly an indication of how hard you're working. Sure you should be able to run the 70-75 MPW you're at but NOT as singles as you're trying to do. At the very least, try this pattern which has been very successful for my guys:

Day 1: Hard workout
Day 2: longer run
Day 3: Easy recover day or day off.
Repeat.

So looking at my wife's program, Wed hard, Thurs longer, Fri off. Sat hard, Sunday longer, Mon off. Tues maintenance. I have a kid who ran 28:39 at Stanford a few weeks back in the 10k doing this type of schedule, same for a gal who went from 17 flat for 5k 2 years ago down to 16:18 at Mt Sac a few weeks back, she's also 4th in the nation in the steeple, gone from 10:12 last year to 9:57 this year. This basic program works well. Look it over, see if you can do something similar. Addresses all the major elements needed for distance racing success. Hard workouts, longer runs, recovery.

Let me know what you think.

Joe

[runner39]

Joe,

That schedule look's like what I need, I am guessing the Thurs uptempo run is not to run to hard especially after a workout, should it be by feel, maybe start off easy then increase pace gradually with the last few miles around 1/2 marathon pace.

When should the race pace specific workouts start in relation to your goal race (5k/10k)? Is there any chance you could post some of the gal's training who just ran 16:15, she is alittle faster than me but I could relate more to her training than your 28 min 10k guy.

Thanks again.

[Joe Rubio]

I'll post a few sample weeks below, but you have to realize she is 24, she's been training as a competitive track distance athlete since HS, so going on 8 years of consistent hard training, plus she's young so she's better able to tolerate th training. Still, I"ll post it below, then I'll post some ideas for you as a master runner can try based on the same principles.

12/17-12/23:
Mon: Easy 40-60 min. + optional 1600 of stride the straight/jog the turns in spikes or barefoot on grass.
Tues: 3 x (3 x 250-300m Gradual Hill rep) w/ jog down recovery. #1
focus on form entirely, #2 great form at XC race effort. Last w/ great
form and strong. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4.
Wed: 60-70+ min in hills at strong effort the last 1k-5k if feeling fresh
and strong.
Thurs: Easy day. DNR or 30-40 min EASY
Fri: 6 x 2 min on/off at 5k-10k effort
Sat or Sun: Long run: 12-14
Sun or Sat: 40-60 easy rec run.

12/24-12/30
Mon: Easy 40-60 min. + optional 1600 of stride the straight/jog the turns in spikes or barefoot on grass.
Tues: 3 x (3 x 250-300m Gradual Hill rep) w/ jog down recovery. #1
focus on form entirely, #2 great form at XC race effort. Last w/ great
form and strong. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4.
Wed: 60-70+ min in hills at strong effort the last 1k-5k if feeling fresh
and strong.
Thurs: Easy day. DNR or 30-40 min EASY
Fri: 4 miles at moderate tempo effort
Sat or Sun: Long run: 12-14
Sun or Sat: 40-60 easy rec run.

1/20-1/27:

Sun: Easy 14-16 at approx 7:30 effort.

Mon: AM: Easy 40-60 min + 4 laps of stride straight/jog turns (SS/JT).
Preferably barefoot or in spikes on grass infield at 1500 effort. 5 min,
then intro hurdle drills (focusing on flexibility, range of motion and
strength NOT plyo type drills), water pumps. Stretch. PM: Second run of
25-35 min.

Tues: AM: Easy 40-60 min.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 3 x (3 x hill reps). #1 exaggerated knee lift, #2 at 3k effort
with acceleration last 80m, #3 hard - all with great form (run tall, foot
falling under center f balance, good pop off ground, relaxed arm swing,
etc). 5 min. 4 x 50's at best top end RELXED speed. Walk back recovery.
25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. PM: Second run of
25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 10-11 miles in hills at strong effort the last 40 min or so if
feeling fresh and strong. If not, cover the distance. 6:40 pace at
fastest.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: AM: 2 x (7 x 400) at 5k effort (40) on grass if dry. If not, track.
200 jog btw each. 400 jog btw sets. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light
shake out strides B4, then 4 x diagonal acceleration of football field as
part of warmup. 1500 effort at fastest. Walk across recovery. Barefoot.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

2/18-2/24:

Sun: Easy 14-16 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM: Easy 40-60 min + 4 laps of stride straight/jog turns (SS/JT).
Preferably barefoot or in spikes on grass infield at 1500 effort. 5 min,
then JOGGING hurdle drills (focusing on flexibility, range of motion and
strength NOT plyo type drills), water pumps. Stretch. PM: Second run of
25-35 min.

Tues: AM: Easy 40-60 min.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 2 x 5 x 400 at 3k effort on grass (76-78) w/ 200 jog btw each,
400 btw sets. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. PM:
Second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 10-11 miles in hills at strong effort the last 40 min or so if
feeling fresh and strong. If not, cover the distance. 6:40 pace at
fastest.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: AM or PM: Ovett Tempo (your homework assignment; who was Steve
Ovett?): 3 miles at tempo (5:56-6:00), 1 mile at MP (6:16-20), 1 mile 10k
effort (5:36). 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4.
AM or PM: Easy run to nice grass field, leg swings. LIGHT strides on grass
at tempo effort for 20-30m, then lightly accelerate for 10-13m, step on 12"
tall barrier and jump 5 or so meters beyond to simulate jumping off a water
barrier. Walk, jog back to original start. Repeat using the alternate leg
as lead leg. 6-8 each leg. Not supposed to be a long jump WR effort, just
a nice, smooth push off.

3/3-3/10: Easy week. Second runs for the day optional.

Sun: Easy 14-16 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM: Easy 30-50 min + 4 laps of stride straight/jog turns (SS/JT).
Preferably barefoot or in spikes on grass infield at 1500 effort. 5 min,
then JOGGING hurdle drills (focusing on flexibility, range of motion and
strength NOT plyo type drills), water pumps. Stretch. PM: Second run of
25-35 min.

Tues: AM: Easy 30-50 min.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 2 x 5 x 400 at 3k effort on grass (78-80) w/ 200 jog btw each,
400 btw sets. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. PM:
Second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 8-10 miles in hills controlled.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: Ovett Tempo: 3 miles at tempo (5:56-6:00), 1 mile at MP
(6:16-20), 1 mile strong. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light
shake out strides B4. Optional second 20-30 min easy run, no drills.

Sun: easy, easy 12-13.

4/1-4/7:

Sun: Easy 14-16 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM: Easy recovery run of 40-60 min.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Tues: AM: Easy 30-50 min + 4 laps of stride straight/jog turns (SS/JT).
Preferably barefoot or in spikes on grass infield at 1500 effort. 5 min,
then RUNNING hurdle drills (focusing on flexibility, range of motion and
strength NOT plyo type drills), water pumps. Stretch.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 5 mile continuous run alternating miles of 10k/80%/10k/80%/10k.
Speedstars or Ohanas. So 5:35/6:35/5:35/6:35/5:35 + 5 min easy, then 4 x
200 at 1500 w/ 200 jog. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out
strides B4. 6 x diagonal accelerations barefoot - good speed but relaxed.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 10-11 miles in hills at strong effort the last 40 min or so if
feeling fresh and strong. If not, cover the distance. 6:40 pace at
fastest.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: AM: 2 x 4 x 300 at 1500. 300 jog btw each, 600 jog btw sets.
25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. 6 x diagonal
accelerations barefoot - good speed but relaxed. Spikes or adi PR's.
PM: Easy run + water jump work.

4/30-5/5:

Mon: AM or PM: Easy recovery run 10-12 miles

Tues: AM: Easy 50-60 min
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 5 mile continuous run alternating miles of 10k/80%/10k/80%/10k.
Speedstars or Ohanas. So 5:30/6:30/5:30/6:30/5:30 + 5-10 min easy, then 4 x
100 sprint w/ easy walk back recovery in spikes. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down.
4-6 light shake out strides B4. 6 x diagonal accelerations barefoot - good
speed at end. Remember, fast and smooth at end of accelerations.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 10-11 miles in hills at strong effort the last 40 min or so if
feeling fresh and strong. If not, cover the distance. 6:30 pace at
fastest. Pretty much last one of these B4 Indy.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: AM: 5 x 800 at 3k (74-76) w/ 400 jog. 5-10 min. 4 x 200 split w/
easy 200 walk/jog bwteen each. 200 split = Stride 150 (75-78 pace) w/ water
jump and last hurdle, sprint through finish after last hurdle.
25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. Spikes or adi
PR's.
PM: Easy run 25-35 min.

[Joe Rubio]

What I would suggest for you is what we tend to start all masers runners with that sounds too easy yet get's the job done, keeps them healthy allows them to improve. 2 primary workouts each week:

1. Short intervals of 200-300m in length or 30-60 seconds if you prefer at 5k effort. Same time recovery. 6-8 min total hard running. Can be done on a track o on road as a fartlek. Hill reps work here. Key here is to NOT hammer this, it's at 5k effort NOT significantly faster!!!!!!! It's an easy uptempo wokout to get used to running 5k pace is all.

Examples:

-2 x 6 x 200 at 5k w/ 100 jog btw each, 400 jog btw sets or 2 x 6 x 30 sec on/off w/ 2 min btw sets.
-6-8 x 250-300m gradual grade hill reps. On dirt or grass, jog down recovery. Up at faster 5k effort.
-8 x 60 sec on/off at 5k effort or 8 x 300 at 5k effort w/ 150 jog.

2. Tempo run of 20 min at 1/2m to MP NOT FASTER!!!!! This is NOT supposed to be 4 miles as fast as you can possibly do it, it's ann uptempo longer run is all. On alternating weeks do 3-5 min intervals at 1/2M pace totaling 20 min of hard running. IE 7 x 3 on/1 off or 4 x 5 min on/1-2 off or 2 x 10 min on/1-2 off.

Add to this 2 other longer runs each week:

1. 90-120 min easy.
2. 70 min or so, in hills at progressive effort. Last 3-6 miles at 80% 5k effort IF it's coming easy. If not, cover the distance.

The week would look like this:

Sun: 90-120 min long, easy. If racing the previous day, easy 40-60 min here instead.
Mon: Easy 30 min or day off.
Tues: Easier 50-60 min run.
Wed: Short intervals. Longer 20-30 min warmup and cooldown. Optional 20-30 min run for the day.
Thur: Mid week longer run. 70 min in hills att prgressive efforts.
Fri: Day off or EASY 30 min run.
Sat: Tempo run or cruise intervals. Longer 20-30 min warmup and cooldown. Optional 20-30 min run for the day. Race substitues for this workout and bag the long run as well if racing. If Sunday race, easy 20-30 min Sat w/ some strides, race Sunday, back on schedule Monday. Don't run the long run if racing is the point.

You can do this for a long, long time and race very well off it.

Get me your thoughts.

Joe

[runner39]

Hello Joe,

Thanks for posting your athletes schedule, it's a great guide, the master's schedule is outstanding and I will definitely start using that now. I like the variety of the schedule much more than what I was doing, also look forward to the recovery it provides. I really appreciate your time and efforts into posting this information, I'll keep in touch with my progress.

Thanks,
Ken Gosleigh

[pedro]

Joe,

What do you think of running two longer/harder days with the one mid-longer run and giving up the long, easy (Sunday) run? Am I missing an essential element if I don't do a long, easy run? I've been trying the following;

Sun: 4wu + 4x1200-10K + 4x800-5K + 6x200 3K-1 mile pace + 4 cd/pm 3-5 if able to get the time.
Mon: 5 miles ez
Tues: 2-3wu + 12x200-3K (last two maybe 1 mile pace or substitue with hills) +2cd
Wed: am; 3wu + 3x2 half pace ending with 6x200 3K-1600 pace./ pm; 5 ez
Thurs: 5 ez
Fri: light progressive 10 miles
Sat: 5 ez

I don't doubt it works, but I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around no longer intervals and sticking to short ones like you mentioned above.

(I thought I was about the same age as Ovett since he was running well in the 1980s, but he was probably in second grade when I began walking-What a great career he had)

pedro

[Joe Rubio]

pedro,

It looks like you have 3 primary workouts listed and a single moderately faster longer run + 3 recovery type days. Was that the intent? I read your original post to mean 2 primary workouts and a moderately longer, uptempo run. Let me know.

Also, the schedule I listed does have longer intervals, they just are listed as cruise intervals which for everyone are fast enough early in the season. We tend to go with longer intervals at 10k or 5k efforts the last few weeks of the season as race specific work, the rest of the year we tend to do more short intervals. This wasn't my idea, I stole it from Jeff Johnson who stole it from Dr Daniels. I looked at Matt Guisto's schedule from 9/1/99 through Feb 2000 and 1 or 2x every week was short intervals, zero longer intervals. That and say 8 miles at 80% of 5k. He did 2 months w/ once a week longer intervals in March and April and ran 13:25 off it. Lead the US, his second fastest time ever.

If you look at the vast majority of successful distance runners, they tend to do (or did in the case of guys from the 50's-70's) lots of short intervals. O of Oregon under Bowerman and Dehlinger, Villanova under Elliott (ie the Liquori system), lots and lots of guys never went much past 800m for an interval and then only did they do intervals greater than 400m hard occassionally. VO2 development is generally what we're after by doing intervals and it's based on short, repeated bouts of fast running and repeated recovery. Longer intervals the way many US people do them (which generally is too hard and fast) leads to plateuing or getting fit too soon. At least that's what I found out which is why we keep them slower early in the season. Painfully slow for most.

Like you I was sketical, but have since found greater success for more people and less injuries than using long, fast intervals all year. Yes we do longer intervals, but usually only the last 8-12 weeks of the year.

Let me know your thoughts.

Joe

[runner39]

Joe,

If you have time would it be possible to post a week's schedule of your girl's training with a race.

Thanks,
Ken

[pedro]

Joe,

It's written like intended and sure enough you have the long intervals in your plan. The more l look at the schedule you wrote above the more I like it. The million clichés about running harder is not smarter is popping up in my brain.

The 12x200-3K, with equal distance recoveries, seems pretty easy and I haven't considered it a very hard day. I've considered it more a prep for upcoming 8x400-3K and later 4x800 3K work. Given what you've written, I suppose I should adjust things and make it one by adding to the wu and cd.

I generally have two days a week for running over, 90 minutes, which is why I've dropped to easy, long run and replaced it with one of similar distance with some intensity in it.

I guess I jumped on the bandwagon with the longer intervals of 5-10K pace early in a season and either lengthened them, added a fast ending, and/or shortened the recovery as time progressed. I've heard of legend runners doing lots of short intervals per workbout, but I guess I figured I had to work harder with longer intervals. I’ll have to find some reading on Igloi or Bowerman (heard tons about him, but nothing of substance regarding training other than 30/40s and Pre)

Even though I am ditching it, here's the three workouts, w/o an easy long run, I was planning prior to reading this thread; focus on 10K. Hope it makes some sense

5-6 weeks per #1,2,3:

1. wo#1;12x400-3K. wo#2;4x1200-10K + 4x800-5K. wo#3;2x3 hmp
2. wo#1; 8x400-3K. wo#2;4x2000 (1200-10K/800-5K) wo#3;2x4 hmp or continuous 5x1200/1000-half/mar pace
3. wo#1; 4x800 3K. wo#2; 3miles of in/outs. wo#3; continuous 5x1200/1000-half/marathon pace
4. scale down for focus races

Any thoughts?
pedro

[Doug E.]

I have had a lot of success structuring my weeks along the same lines that Joe is talking about. While I'm note quite a master (I'll be 39 soon), I was able to PR in Chicago by using this rough outline:

Mon: Single recovery run
Tues: am workout, pm easy 30-40 min.
Wed: Steady 8-13
Thurs: Easy/Steady 8
Fri: am workout, pm easy 30-40 min.
Sat: Steady 9-11
Sun: Steady 16-22

I found that this framework allowed me to stay both fresh & healthy at the same time, which is something that I never really experienced before using Joe's system.

[Joe Rubio]

runner39,

Here are examples of 4 weeks which included 3 races. Stanford Steeple (2nd 9:58), Mt Sac 5k (2nd B heat 16:18 w/ 5:08 last mile), Payton Jordan Steeple (2nd 9:57), all PR's. Rested her up for the steeples, the 5k was not rested for greatly. Changed the Monday workout after Mt Sac to 40 min easy + 6 x 200 w/ water barrier and hurdles, 200 jog to address poor water jumps at Stanford.

Joe

3/25-3/31: Stanford Invite Steeple at end of this easy week. Confirm time
schedule. Easy week. Second runs for the day optional.

Sun: Easy 12-14 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM: 2 x 800 at 5k w/ 400 jog, 2 x 400 at 3k w/ 200 jog, 2 x 200 at
1500 w/ 200 jog. 4-6 light shake out strides B4, then 6 x diagonal
acceleration of football field as part of warm up. Start at 3k effort and
end at 800 effort at fastest. Good speed, relaxed, not straining. Walk
across recovery. Barefoot.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Tues: AM: Easy 60-70 min.

Wed: AM: 3 x 3 x 300. First set at 5k, second set at 3k, last set at
1500. 100 jog btw each, 5 min btw sets. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6
light shake out strides B4.
PM: Optional easy 20-30 min.

Thurs: 30-60 min EASY!!!

Fri: 30 min easy + 4 x 200 at 1500 effort w/ 200 rec.

Sat: Stanford Invite Steeple. First mile at approx 80, then look to work
your way up to the leaders w/ 800 to go. Look to run a strong last 600-800.
Stay conservative and out of trouble the first mile. AM run of an easy
20-30 min.

4/1-4/7:

Sun: Easy 14-16 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM: Easy recovery run of 40-60 min.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Tues: AM: Easy 30-50 min + 4 laps of stride straight/jog turns (SS/JT).
Preferably barefoot or in spikes on grass infield at 1500 effort. 5 min,
then RUNNING hurdle drills (focusing on flexibility, range of motion and
strength NOT plyo type drills), water pumps. Stretch.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 5 mile continuous run alternating miles of 10k/80%/10k/80%/10k.
Speedstars or Ohanas. So 5:35/6:35/5:35/6:35/5:35 + 5 min easy, then 4 x
200 at 1500 w/ 200 jog. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out
strides B4. 6 x diagonal accelerations barefoot - good speed but relaxed.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 10-11 miles in hills at strong effort the last 40 min or so if
feeling fresh and strong. If not, cover the distance. 6:40 pace at
fastest.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: AM: 2 x 4 x 300 at 1500. 300 jog btw each, 600 jog btw sets.
25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. 6 x diagonal
accelerations barefoot - good speed but relaxed. Spikes or adi PR's.
PM: Easy run + water jump work.

4/8-4/14: Mt Sac 5k on Friday at end of this week. Tuesday is the lone
primary workout for the week

Sun: Easy 12-14 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM: Easy 30-50 min + 4 laps of stride straight/jog turns (SS/JT).
Preferably barefoot or in spikes on grass infield at 1500 effort. 5 min,
then RUNNING hurdle drills (focusing on flexibility, range of motion and
strength NOT plyo type drills), water pumps. Stretch.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min

Tues: AM: 6 x cornfield at 5k effort (3:00) w/ 3 min rec jog. 5 min, then
4 x 30 seconds at 1500 effort, 60 seconds off. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down.
4-6 light shake out strides B4. Ohanas.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: Easy 2nd farmhouse or 50-60 min easy flat.

Thurs: 30 min easy + 4 x 200 at 1500 effort w/ 200 rec. Optional second
run of 30 min.

Fri: Mt Sac 5k. 10:25-30 at the 3200, then a mentally strong last mile
First 2 miles stay in control of your race plan and out of trouble, last
mile race others, particularly the last 800. AM run of 20-30 min.

Sat: 12-16 easy

4/15-4/21:

Sun: Easy, EASY 30-60 min.

Mon: AM: 4 x 400 at 65-67 w/ 5 min recovery. Spikes! 25-30 min up,
15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. 6 x diagonal accelerations
barefoot - good speed but relaxed. This looks easy but is deceptively
difficult, be ready to suffer a bit. If you are falling off at 3, bag #4.
PM: Easy 20-30 min + very light hurdle flex drills.

Tues: AM: Easy 40-60 min.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Wed: AM: 4 x 400 at 5k effort on grass (82-84) w/ 200 jog btw each, 20
min at 6 min pace, 4 x 400 at 5k effort on grass w/ 200 jog. #1 & 3 of each
set over 4 hurdles. Ohanas or Speedstars. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6
light shake out strides B4, then 6 x diagonal acceleration of football field
as part of warmup. Start at 3k effort and end at 800 effort at fastest. Good
speed, relaxed, not straining. Walk across recovery. Barefoot. Stay in
control of this workout. Monday and Saturday are harder days, this one is
supposed to be run conservatively and within yourself. Splits not as
important as keeping effort appropriate.
PM: Second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM: 10-11 miles in hills at strong effort the last 40 min or so if
feeling fresh and strong. If not, cover the distance. 6:40 pace at
fastest.

Fri: Easy day. DNR or 1-2 x 30-40 min EASY

Sat: AM: 2 x 3 x 400 at 1500. 400 jog btw each, 800 jog btw sets.
25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. 6 x diagonal
accelerations barefoot - good speed but relaxed. Spikes or adi PR's.
PM: Easy run + water pit work.

4/22-4/29. Cardinal Invite Steeple at end of this easy week on Sunday.
Confirm time schedule. Easy week. Second runs for the day optional.

Sun: EASY!!! 10-12 at approx 7:08 effort.

Mon: AM or PM: 6 x 80/100's. Full recovery, then light flex drill work
B4 warmdown. 25-30 min up, 15-20 down. 4-6 light shake out strides B4.
Ohanas or Speedstars. Optional second run of 20-30 min.

Tues: AM or PM: Easy 40-60 min.

Wed: AM: 2 x 800 at 5k w/ 400 jog, 2 x 400 at 3k w/ 200 jog, 2 x 200 w/
2 hurdles at 1500 w/ 200 jog. 4-6 light shake out strides B4. Ohanas,
maybe Adi pr's. PM: Optional second run of 25-35 min.

Thurs: AM or PM: Easy 50-60 min.

Fri: AM: Easy 30-40 min.

Sat: 30 min easy + 4 x 200 at 1500 effort w/ 200 rec.

Sun: Cardinal Invite Steeple. We will talk strategy after seeing how
Stanford Invite and Mt Sac go. AM run of an easy 20-30 min.

Workout paces and guide. This may change depending on race results for the
month:
Current Est. Fitness
5k/10k: 16:40/35:00

65%: 8:15+
70%: 7:36
75%: 7:08
80%: 6:40
85%: 6:16
90%: 5:56
95%: 5:36
100%: 5:20
105%: 5:02
110%: 4:48

[Joe Rubio]

1. wo#1;12x400-3K. wo#2;4x1200-10K + 4x800-5K. wo#3;2x3 hmp
2. wo#1; 8x400-3K. wo#2;4x2000 (1200-10K/800-5K) wo#3;2x4 hmp or continuous 5x1200/1000-half/mar pace
3. wo#1; 4x800 3K. wo#2; 3miles of in/outs. wo#3; continuous 5x1200/1000-half/marathon pace
4. scale down for focus races

Any thoughts?
pedro

Thoughts? You're training awfully hard it looks like to me. Take week the end of week #2 heading into the start of week #3 for instance, that second workout is a KILLER. Not fun, not easy, very, very hard, demanding and will take a lot out of you. It's a butt buster which I know for a fact, the 28:39 guy I work w/ could not finish. Maybe 4 x 2k at 10k effort yeah, but 1200 at 10k, straight into 800 at 5k x 4? No way. You follow that up with yet another very solid workout that's harder than I gave the gals who got 11th, 13th and 22nd in the last Oly Trials. The 4 x 800 at 3k is super tough as well. I schedule that maybe once a season and then have the workout before and after light so the athlete can manage it. 3 of the hardest workouts I can imagine writting up for an entire month and you have all 3 in a single week.

So yeah I think you're working too hard. Something to consider:

I usually schedule each week a primary effort and a secondary effort. If it's a race, then that's the primary, the other workout for the week will work a certain pace, but generally will not be a big deal. Other weeks I'll have a hard workout and a not so hard workout. Additionally let me suggest you buy the book Running Trax. Why? It has lots of charts, many of which tell you an appropriate volume of work at a certain pace. I use this when I'm thinking up workouts for people to do. It works on percentages and if you are running workouts at say 120-140%, then you are asking too much of yourself. You have lots and lots of 100+% workouts, few if any under. Generally speaking we'll have people do approx 85-100% in the hard workout, 75-90% in the other one. Without having the book in front of you it's hard to explain, but it's a solid reference to help keep you out of trouble.

The other thing, tempo runs tend to fall into 2 main categories:

1. Short fast: 20 min at 1/2 MP
2. Longer, slower: 40-50 min at 80% of 5k

Generally speaking I'll have people do the longer one each week in the form of the mid week longer run at progressive efforts and a short, fast run every other week or so. This is what Vigil has in his book as well. You can do the longer ones each week cause there are fast enough to give great benefits, but not so fast as to kill you off. The short, fast runs are harder on you. You have taken the short, fast run and doubled it and you're doing it each week. Too much.

So I would slow down that 3rd workout to be at the fastest 80% of your 5k and go longer, then do a single primary workout and a secondary workout. That's what we do and it seems to work well.

Let me knoow what ya think.

Joe

There you go.

[pedro]

Joe,

Thanks for the feedback. I guess I went berserk putting that plan together. I have done segments of this before, but never over the extended time I had planned for this year. I am not sure how I ended up with this plan, since I had followed more of a toned down version of your Aggies plan before.
I did the continuous 2000 with 1200-10K/1000-5K twice last year, but only 3x with around 3 min and later 90 sec. recovery. I made it through it, not that it helped me race better.

In the past when working toward half marathons, I had worked up to about 8 miles of half pace, usually in 2 miles/intervals. I’ll definitely follow your advice, but am a little surprised at the 20 min limit of the half paced tempo. Maybe it’s because my speed isn’t too hot compared to endurance, but I have often done the 5x1200/1000 (h/m pace)-it’s one of my favorite workouts. I will definitely pick up Purdy’s Book. Any idea how to find Vigil’s book? Since it’s out of print, I have only seen it listed for around $100 recently.

Anyway, your message is slowly sinking in. I’ll probably start with the sensible master’s plan you listed earlier in this thread to start and use the steepler’s schedule (she running great, thanks to Flocast I was able to watch her) as a helpful guide to some of the workout specifics.

44 and still trying to get it,
pedro

[Joe Rubio]

pedro,

I just spoke to Dr Vigil, he said send him $30 and he'll mail you a book. Ask him to sign it and he'll probably do that as well. Make sure to include your mailing address so he can send it to you. Mail the check made out to Dr Vigil to:

Joe Vigil
292 N Cedar Crest Dr.
Green Valley, AZ 85614

Keep in mind this book is NOT a bunch of cookie cutter programs you follow. It's written in such a way that it takes a lot of reading it over and over again before the patterns make themselves apparent. I've been reading the thing consistently for 6 years now and am still discovering ideas in it.

If you need anything else, let me know.

Joe

[pedro]

Joe,

Thanks for the advise on the scheduling, types, and amount of workload. I am curious to see my race results with the more realistic schedule. Looking over my logs of the last couple years, I see I've pretty much beaten myself into the ground training with little improvement in race times. I looked up some of Tony Young's training and he pretty much follows what you're saying. I am sure lots of others do to.

Given the schedules I written for myself in the past, I probably need cookie cutter advise, but am eager to see Vigil's book. Thanks for the contact info for it.

pedro